What's the best way to convert FAT32 to NTFS? (W2K)

[kef999]

To date, I've been using Win2K Pro, single boot, with four distinct FAT32 partitions on a single HD drive. If and when Service Pack 3 arrives, I intend to perform a major cleanup - to format all partitions and reinstall Win2K and all my apps, etc from scratch, this time with all four partitions as NTFS.

Let's say for argument's sake that the partitions are C, D, E and F. C is the root drive with Win2K and all the data. E contains important files (personal, drivers, etc) copied across from C. D and F contain nothing and are reserved for future backup purposes.

What's the best gameplan for converting all four partitions to NTFS, while reinstalling Win2K? I've no wish (nor should it be necessary) to use Partition Magic or similar.

According to an authorative Microsoft publication on Win2K Pro, simply using the Convert command, available under Command Prompt, will NOT get the best performance out of the hard drive. Instead, it recommends backing up to a medium, formatting the partition, and then restoring the data. Performance of the HD depends on the Master File Table (MFT), the essential component of NTFS containing all the information about each file. If you use CONVERT, Windows creates the MFT and its buffer zone wherever free space is available and, in this case. this will not be a contiguous block. Thus, the HD will spend much of its time hunting for file information. However, when you FORMAT a partition, Windows creates the MFT in a contiguous block at the beginning of the disk, this area giving the fastest data transfers. Additionally, the buffer zone is placed adjacent to the MFT.

Since all my partitions are currently FAT32s, it seems useless to back up my existing files to CD (since they can't be restored later to an NTFS partition). Neither would it be profitable to CONVERT and backup my files to NTFS, to later restore them, because this would require pre-conversion of the root drive and you can't convert the root drive using the CONVERT command!! Thus, there's some considerable risk in this whole operation.

It seems that, come what may, at least one Convert operation has to be used in this particular setup. I've worked out a strategy, thus:-

1. Transfer all remaining personal files from C into E (drag n drop).
2. Format D and F, to NTFS (using Disk Mngt or rt-clicking partitions in My Computer).
3. Format C (FAT32, so using Win98 floppy).
4. Reinstall Win2K on C, formatting to NTFS in the process.
5. Convert E to NTFS (using the Convert command) and transfer personal files from E back into C.
6. Format E, to NTFS, then copy personal files into E again.

Can anybody advise me further on this? Does my plan look ok (albeit belt n braces)? For instance, I presume that the change to NTFS during the installation of Win2K won't format E as well as C!!! I guess most people would just use the Convert command throughout, but this permanently worsens HD performance. (Remember, anyway, that you can't use Convert on the root partition).

[BertImmenschuh]

"Since all my partitions are currently FAT32s, it seems useless to back up my existing files to CD (since they can't be restored later to an NTFS partition)."

Wrong!!! Anything copied to a CD or network drive is simply stored without regard to the formatting of the drive. Anything on a CD can be copied back to the hard drive but you do need to remember to clear the Read-only attribute. All files put on CD are Read-only not to keep them from being changed but because they can't be changed on the CD.

It is never useless to backup your data, anything you created and exists nowhere else. Besides, Win2000 and WinXP can use FAT16, FAT32, and NTFS. It's Win9x/ME that can't use NTFS.

[kef999]

Many thanks, Bert. Yes, I've assumed all along that, if I were to copy all my important files in the existing FAT32 E partition on to a CD, they won't copy back, when E (or C) has been changed in the meantime to NTFS. Are you SURE this is possible? Also, where and when exactly would I need to clear the Read-only attribute?

I wasn't implying that it was generally a waste of time to do backups. Quite the reverse. Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. It's just that, in this particular instance, I thought you couldn't expect a recorded FAT32 contents to be copied back on to an NTFS partition. You appear to be saying that, because I'm using specifically Win2K, this WILL be possible. Right?

Obviously, I need to be 100% certain about all this, as otherwise I'll lose all my personal files and important drivers!!

[BertImmenschuh]

A CD does not take on FAT32 or NTFS formatting, only its own [what the burning software does].

When you right-click a file, in Properties at the bottom is 3 items you can check, Read-only, Hidden, and Archive.

Archive means that is the only copy that Windows knows about. Haven't investigated the Archive bit [haven't needed to, doesn't cause me any concern] in WinXP but using tape backup programs in Win9x/3.1, the archive bit would be changed by the tape program.

Hidden means that the computer can't usually find it unless told where it is.

I copy files to a CD frequently and often copy them to other hard drives, never any problem. In WinXP, I have noticed that sometimes the Read-only attribute is removed automatically when copied back to the same hard drive.

Keep in mind that anything on a CD-R has to be readable on any number of computers, with the exception being the CD-RW disks and Macintosh disks. Because of what I do, I record downloaded programs and diagnostics at 4X speed which virtually guarantees them to be readable on all but the 2X and 3X CD-ROMs.

Again, using Win2000/XP means you can interchange drives formatted as FAT32 or NTFS, or have one of each in the same computer.

[kef999]

Yes, it seems that I've been labouring under a misapprehension about the interoperability of FAT32 and NTFS. I didn't know that, with Win2K, FAT32 files and folders can be utilised in an NTFS environment. Well good, that means I won't need to use Convert at all and can instead use Format throughout. My revised strategy is therefore:-

1. Copy (using drag n' drop from a packet-writing program) all personal files, drivers, etc to a CD.
2. Format D, E and F to NTFS (using, say, Disk Mngt in Win2K).
3. Format C, using a Win98 floppy. (Strictly speaking, this is unnecessary because formatting is done in stage 4, anyway).
4. Reinstall Win2K on C, formatting to NTFS in the process.
5. Reinstall the packet-writing program to the C partition and then copy the contents of the CD back into C and E. For each file, clear the Read-only attribute.

Does this now look sensible?

With quite a lot of personal files saved, clearing Read-only for each one is going to be a tedious operation, isn't it? Is there a quick way to do this on a block of files at a time?

[Jama]

I typed a reply to your earlier post then came here to post it and realised you have changed your plan all together.

Your new plan is almost identical to what I wanted to suggest except the CD bit.
I just can’t understand why you want to copy data to/from a slow medium when you have two empty partitions!

If I was in your shoes, this is what I’d do;

1- Format D and F with NTFS.
2- Move my data from C and E to D and/or F.
3- Reboot from the Win2K CD and reinstall with the NTFS option on the C partition.
4- Restore my data to its original location. “No read-only attributes to worry about!”

P.S CDs uses the CD-ROM file systems (CDFS). There are different CD-ROM file systems in use to suit the different platforms out there “Windows, Mac, Unix etc”
The most common one is ISO 9660 and its JOLIET extension. ISO 9660 is the international standard version of the High Sierra Group file system and its purpose designed for the PC and MSDOS. The JOLIET extensions provide long filenames.
Normally, you select which file system to use from within the CD burning software.

How about that for a totally useless and highly irrelevant piece of info /images/forums/icons/tongue.gif

Jama

[kef999]

Jama, thanks ever so much. It's all too easy when trying to figure these things out to completely miss a simpler method, especially when, like me, you've not really had to think much about FAT32 and NTFS volumes before.

I think the thing that's difficult to get my head around at the moment is finding out from you folks that I can transfer files and folders from a FAT32 partition into an NTFS partition and they'll still be accessible (only because the OS is Win2K). That's what you're suggesting in your steps 1 and 2. You're absolutely certain about that, eh? Remember that the overall aim here - beside reinstalling Win2K - is to change all four partitions from FAT32 to NTFS, and to do that using the Format command rather than the Convert command.

Your comments and information are far from useless, Jama. I appreciate very much you and Bert helping me on this. My ignorance has been all too apparent. Ah well, we all have to learn these things.

[kef999]

Bert, Jama, et al,

Here's my latest strategy:-

1. Format D and F with NTFS.
2. Copy personal files from C and E on to D.
3. Format E with NTFS.
4. Format C, using a Win98 floppy disk (an optional stage).
5. Reinstall Win2K with the NTFS option on the C partition.
6. Copy the files on D back into C and E.

If I were to leave F, say, as a FAT32 partition, I presume that that would then allow me to still use a Win98 floppy disk to perform DOS operations on any of the partitions. Right, or wrong? (C, reformatted to NTFS, would be the boot partition, still). Given that I can't see myself ever using Win98 again, would there be any point in leaving F as a FAT32? I'm just wondering about flexibility.

[Jama]

Everyday I’m here I learn something new, does that make me ignorant? No. I think ignorance is thinking you know everything when in reality you know very little!

DOS, Windows 95, 98 and ME can’t read from or write to an NTFS volume. While the NT family of windows support both filing system (Read & write).
I multi-boot my PC with;

Windows ME - FAT32.
Windows 2000 - NTFS “damaged, never got around to deleting it!”.
Windows 2000 - NTFS.
Windows XP Pro - NTFS.
Linux Mandrake 8 - EXT2 (Extended File System Version 2)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shared Partitions between all operating systems;
D:\ - Back-up 6.5GB FAT32
H:\ - Shared Program Files & Shared Data 8GB Fat32
I:\ - Personal Data 7GB NTFS

Important but not sensitive data are kept on Fat32 partitions (D & H) for disaster recovery!
Personal data are kept on I:\, to make use of the NTFS file system’s security and access control.
------------------------------------------------------------
Other partitions;
Linux swap partition.
Linux home partition.
------------------------------------------------------------

Win ME can’t see / access NTSF and Linux partitions.
Win2k and XP can see and access all except Linux Partitions.
Linux can see all partitions, read from all, and write to all except NTFE (too dangerous).

Unless you’ve had a hands-on experience of those operating systems, you’re not really expected to know all those confusing rules. Who can read from whom? And who can write to whom? That’s the question!

You can go ahead and do what you said in your last post. You can also leave F as Fat32, this will enable you to access data on F from DOS. That’s said, you can’t access nor carry out DOS operations on any NTFS partitions. Windows 2k have a somewhat DOS equivalent in the form of the Recovery Console. Get familiar with it as it’s your only way of fixing a corrupt or unbootable installation of Win 2k.

To install the Recovery Console as a startup option
With Windows running, insert the Setup CD into your CD-ROM drive.
CLick Start and select Run.
Type the following where D: is the CD-ROM drive letter:
D:\i386\winnt32.exe /cmdcons

Follow the instructions on the screen.

Jama

[kef999]

Gosh, thanks Jama. You've been extremely helpful.

Yes, I've already looked into the business of the Recovery Console. That was quite a long time ago and I think I made a floppy for it, or something.

BTW, I read something in that Micro$oft publication I mentioned that suggested that you can't use any 1.44MB floppy disks on an NTFS machine. Is that true, or was that comment relevant only in some other context? It's something to do with the amount of room that formatting a floppy takes up, leaving apparently no room for storing data. If this is true, it would seem a distinct disadvantage of NTFS. (As you'll know, most floppies come pre-formatted these days).

Is therefore the only way of using floppies to have a dual-boot system, with Win98, say?

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by ptneale on 07/13/02 09:33.</FONT></P>

[BertImmenschuh]

"BTW, I read something in that Micro$oft publication I mentioned that suggested that you can't use any 1.44MB floppy disks on an NTFS machine. Is that true, or was that comment relevant only in some other context?"

No problem with floppy disks and computers with NTFS. NTFS only applies to the hard drive. When using WinNT4/2000/XP, floppies are read/written/formatted the same as if using DOS or Win9x/ME.

The 'other context' may have been a reference to there being no boot disk for NTFS.

[kef999]

Just two further questions that have occurred to me:

1. Before reinstalling Win2K (stage 5, above), would I need to do anything to the C partition, other than formatting it? For example, would I need to overwrite or clear the existing Win2K boot sector? If so, how? Or will formatting do that, anyway?

2. If I were to leave F as a FAT32 partition, would the labelling order of my partitions change when the other partitions have been 'converted'? Would F, for example, become D?

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by ptneale on 07/13/02 14:56.</FONT></P>

[BertImmenschuh]

1. ALWAYS when I do a clean install, I will use a Win98 boot disk and run fdisk to remove all partitions. Unfortunately, the C: partition has to be the last removed so in your situation you have only re-formatting available, unless you want to lose everything in the other partitions.

To 'clear' or 'reset' the Master Boot Record, boot to a Win98 floppy and at the A: prompt, type: fdisk /mbr. That guarantees Win2000 will not boot up. Then proceed with installing Win2000. You may be able to boot the Win98 floppy and get CD support and run the Win2000 setup or you may be able to boot the Win2000 CD and run setup without the floppy.

2. The labelling order of drives/partitions should not change. The conversion from FAT32 to NTFS does not make the change. Deleting a partition WILL change the line-up.

The order of the computer/BIOS assigning hard drive letter is as follows, with physical drives 1 and 2:
Drive 1 is C [single partition]
Drive 2 is D [single partition]

If using multiple partitions:
Drive 1 partition 1 is C
Drive 2 partition 1 is D
Drive 1 partition 2 is E
Drive 2 partition 2 is F

With 1 drive there would be no drive 2 so the partitions would fall into line, i.e., C, D, E, F, etc.

Remember, physical hard drives are assigned letters by the BIOS first and then the partitions.

After all the hard drives and partitions come the CD drives and Zip/Jaz drives, and these can be changed after Windows is running. Actually, in DOS and Win9x, the config.sys and autoexec.bat files could have entries assigning letters to these drives.

[kef999]

Bert,

I certainly won't want to delete my partitions, as when I first set up Win2K on my machine I went to great pains to apportion their respective sizes and assign appropriate drive letters to them. It took me some considerable fiddling around with FDISK to get them right. More importantly, there'll be important data in some of them, and you've acknowledged that.

Concerning automatic letter assignment, I was wondering whether the BIOS or Windows would, by perhaps convention, prioritise FAT32 over NTFS in the order of devices and would therefore shift the F partition (which I'm proposing could be left as a FAT32) further up the order, perhaps becoming D. You seem to be pretty sure that that won't happen, though. Good.

BTW, when I type to clear the MBR, should there be a space between fdisk and /? And having typed that, will there be anything further to do, as a consequence of that, or will I simply need to go back to the C prompt and then turn my machine off (in readiness for reinstalling Win2K)? In other words, will the machine respond to my fdisk /mbr &lt;Rtn&gt; and require me to do anything else to complete that operation?

[BertImmenschuh]

Drive letter assignment comes after partitioning with fdisk and before the drive is formatted and is not dependent upon whether it is FAT, FAT16, FAT32, or NTFS.

Using fdisk /mbr from a Win98 boot floppy replaces any missing/corrupted/inappropriate Master Boot Record.

You should not have to re-boot after running the command but it would not be a bad idea. When the command has completed you will be returned to the A: prompt. If you wish you could at this point type sys c: and it will make the hard drive bootable to a Win98 C: prompt, after removing the floppy. Not doing the sys c: part will require either the boot floppy or the CD to start the computer. Win2000 CD should be bootable if your BIOS is set to boot to a CD.

[kef999]

Thanks for pointing out all of that. Yes, I'd intended, when I get to the formatting of C (my latest stage 4), to go first of all into the BIOS and set my machine to boot from, first, floppy disk, and then CD - I'd need floppy bootability to do the format and also clearing the MBR, and then I'd need CD bootability to reinstall Windows.

In taking up your other suggestion, about sys c:, I'm assuming that typing that in won't affect the bootability of my machine from CD. (I can't recall ever trying to access the BIOS, having just deleted the operating system, so I think that what I've planned is probably fail-safe).

Cheers, Bert.

[BertImmenschuh]

"In taking up your other suggestion, about sys c:, I'm assuming that typing that in won't affect the bootability of my machine from CD."

Right.

[kef999]

Gosh, that was a quick reply.

[BertImmenschuh]

I just happened to have logged in looking for something else when I saw your last post. Now I get to go out in our 101 degree day and fix another computer.

[kef999]

Is sys c: the same as format c /s:, by any chance? (except that, obviously, the second includes formatting).

So, having changed the chosen FAT32 partitions to NTFSs, I should (in preparation for cleanly reinstalling Win2K):

1. Go into the BIOS and set the boot order to FDD, then CD, then HDD.
2. Boot from my Win98 floppy and format C.
3. While still with the floppy, type fdisk /mbr and then, when it's done that, type sys c:.
4. Backtrack to the C prompt, remove the floppy, and then turn the machine off.
5. Insert the Win2K installation CD and turn on the machine.

Right?

[BertImmenschuh]

The 2 commands are the same, just format /s c: formats the drive and then transfers the system. If the drive is already formatted, no need to do it again. And be sure sys.com is on the floppy. You can find it on a Win98 machine in C:\Windows\Command, same place as format.com and fdisk.com.

Changing to NTFS should be a choice after starting/during the installation from the CD or after Win2000/XP is installed.

I'd go with the rest of what you have listed.

[kef999]

All I need now is for Micro$oft to get their finger out and release a fully-working, bug-free SP3. (Pigs might fly!).

Actually, I hear that Micro$oft was due to finally release SP3 this mid-July but, at the last minute, some serious bugs were discovered in it. So, SP3's release has been postponed yet again.

Postscript: I've a sneaking feeling that my machine won't boot from a CD unless, in the BIOS, I specifically put CD at the very TOP of the boot order, rather than the round-robin order of FDD, then CD, then HDD. Could that be the case? Put another way, I seem to recall, way back, that booting directly from the CD didn't work when the boot order was FDD first, then CD second, despite the floppy disk not being used. If this is so, with my machine, will it be possible to still access the BIOS, to change the boot order to CD first, after having formatted C? I've never tried that before.

Normally, I'd enter the BIOS by pressing Delete at the time that the DOS-type stages of bootup are still in progress. But that's normally with Windows already there.

I'm using the most up-to-date, certified version of my machine's BIOS.

[BertImmenschuh]

The BIOS comes before anything else, doesn't even have to have a hard drive installed. Set the boot sequence to CD, then floppy, then hard drive.

Windows has absolutely no bearing on entering the BIOS at bootup. Understanding that the BIOS [Basic Input Output System] is present in all computers and is necessary to set the computer hardware up before any operating system can be installed is very important, and according to it name, very basic.

"I'm using the most up-to-date, certified version of my machine's BIOS."
That statement gives me a sense that you may be more knowledgeable about the BIOS than I first understood.

[kef999]

Yes, I probably AM more knowledgeable about the System BIOS than you thought. It should have occurred to me that the BIOS is contained in EPROM usually and is independent of the OS. But, as with anything related to computing, I confess that there are gaps in my knowledge in just about every area and, with so much to consider, I sometimes miss the obvious things.

So often, one's depth of knowledge can be determined by nothing more than sheer experience. That's where guys like you are so helpful.