File operations using the clipboard: wasteful?

[DeQuincey]

What are the implications of moving files around using cut and paste operations that use the clipboard? Is it wasteful on systems resources? After many operations, could this be the cause of stalling during some operations in Internet Explorer and Windows Explorer?

Operations like opening a new window in IE or creating a directory and/or renaming a directory in Windows Explorer cause a significant stall in the host application (either IE or Windows Explorer). Deleting files and folders also causes a stall before they are sent to the Recycle Bin. On the other hand, commands like 'mkdir,' 'ren,' and 'del' work without any issues.

TIA
-deq

[BertImmenschuh]

The clipboard as installed with Windows can only hold one item at a time, so there shouldn't be any slowdown there. If a third-party clipboard type program has been installed, the problem may be with it. I'd also be looking at disk fragmentation, disk space, or virus problems.

[DeQuincey]

Right, but that one item would be an object containing a list of files. This is most likely an OLE object. My geeker's intution says that these objects are not being freed-up correctly or they utilize some resources that aren't being freed-up. We all know how well Windows manages it's resources.

Scandisk, Defrag, Virus check done and ok.

No third party clipboard. Just the one that ships with Windblows.

[BertImmenschuh]

One way I clean the clipboard: I copy an image to the clipboard, paste it into another application and save it. Then I open a text file, select some lines, and copy them to the clipboard. That replaces the larger image data and frees up any memory it used. I haven't found any other way to clear the clipboard without third-party help.

[DeQuincey]

Please, make a note of this:
I didn't say that the clipboard is slowing down. My question isn't about the clipboard, per se. Certain operations in Internet Explorer and Windows Exporer begin stalling after some time. (Like they do when Windows is running low on resources.)

Let's try a different format:

Statements:
1) Copy and paste operations invovling a list of files are implemented through the Windows clipboard, utilizing OLE.
2) Poor use (and the poor implementation) of OLE has been known to cause resource issues in Windows.
3) Resource management, as implement in Windows, is poor and prone to leaks.

Assumptions:
1) Directory creation and renaming trough the Windows GUI (that is Windows Explorer) make use of system resources.

Hypothesis:
Frequent use of copy and paste operations, with certain types of clipboard content, will use up system resources. After some time, system resources run low. It is at this time that said problems occur.



Dude, how would you answer this question:

"I have a very fast system, with tons of memory, but Windows98 will eventually run low on system resources." (use my specs for the hypothetical figures: PII 400, 384 MB RAM, Windows98 straight-up)

My answer would be as follows:

"Windows98 can only deal with a finite number of system resources. These resources don't necessarily corespond to large portions of memory. Rather, the system that manages these resources is limited in the number of items that it can handle. I believe this number is pegged at 65,535. Windows would run out of system resources, say, if you tried to open 65,535 text files. Even if they are empty! Actually, it would run out before you reached 65,535 because other resources are also involved for each window opened.

Moral of the story: When Windows runs low of system resources, you're not necessarily running out of memory. Rahter, you are running out of slots that Windows needs to manage all those resources that are being held in memory.

In my hypothetical example, if each file were 1 byte (i.e. one letter) you would only need 65 Kilobytes of memory to hold the contents of the all files. If they were empty, you wouldn't need that memory at all. But, Windows would need to have resources available in order to display that those empty files. You can easily have a situation where there is plenty of free RAM available, but Windows still runs out of resources."


If you don't believe, you should be able to find trojans that make use of this exploit.


Please, let me know what you're not clear on...we're running around in each other in cicles. Frustration doesn't even begin to describe it, and I'm sure you don't exactly like me. But, I hope we can come up with an answer.

[BertImmenschuh]

"You can easily have a situation where there is plenty of free RAM available, but Windows still runs out of resources."
That is a TRUE statement you have made.


This is the best I have seen in awhile about resources:
http://ww2.whidbey.net/djdenham/Window_memory.htm

As soon as I get through the 1,500,000 entries Google found, I'll pick the best one I like
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Dude%22&btnG=Google+Search>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Dude%22&btnG=Google+Search</a>

[DeQuincey]

So you're saying that there are no exploits out there that will try to crash Win98 systems by opening many windows?

(I know I was bsing with the 65,535 figure..but I'm sure you're bright enough to know what I meant and to have a feeling for why I picked that particular number.)

I guess you're also saying you're going to be the source for the in-depth knowledge on how Windows uses the clipboard for file copy opertions.

Hopefully, someone will...

(And, thanks for the link. I'll add it to my bookmarks, but it doesn't give me the answers I'm seeking.)

[look for more on OLE and clipboard here soon]

[BertImmenschuh]

No.

[DeQuincey]

Then why'd you post an answer?
Do you even understand what I'm asking?

[BertImmenschuh]

I lost my head.
Yes.

[DeQuincey]

So if you understand, then why are you answering questions that I didn't ask?

[BertImmenschuh]

You just asked 2 questions, I answered them.
Bye.

[DeQuincey]

"One way I clean the clipboard: I copy an image to the clipboard, paste it into another application and save it. Then I open a text file, select some lines, and copy them to the clipboard. That replaces the larger image data and frees up any memory it used. I haven't found any other way to clear the clipboard without third-party help."

I didn't ask about clearing the clipboard!

[BertImmenschuh]

"""One way I clean the clipboard: I copy an image to the clipboard, paste it into another application and save it. Then I open a text file, select some lines, and copy them to the clipboard. That replaces the larger image data and frees up any memory it used. I haven't found any other way to clear the clipboard without third-party help."

I didn't ask about clearing the clipboard!""

[DeQuincey]

Right...and so you don't understand what I'm asking.

I don't care about the memory used by the clipboard. For a list of files it's trivial.

I asked about the CUT AND PASTE operations in Windows Explorer, invovling a list of files. Does this operation use resources?

Does Windows use kernel resources to point to each and every file in the list?

[TonyKlein]

I don't think anyone should bother helping you solve your problem, as long as you keep treating people who're doing their best to help you like sh*t.

Ciao, Tony

[DeQuincey]

That's the thing...I don't think they're doing their best. Especially Bert here.

And, I think I didn't ask you a damned thing. So, unless you want a flame war, keep yer opinions.

[Mosaic1]

I think you should have a look at this site. It may be just the ticket. This will lead to a deeperunderstanding of the Clipboard and how to get the best help on a Help Forum. I am giving this my best shot. Good luck.
<a target="_blank" href=http://readplease.phpwebhosting.com/htmlframedseppage/windowsclipboardtutorial.htm>http://readplease.phpwebhosting.com/htmlframedseppage/windowsclipboardtutorial.htm</a>

[TonyKlein]

DeQuincey,

I've been following the two threads that you started, and I can't help concluding that it was you who started the flame war.

Any time someone says something that doesn't fully come up to your expectations, you react in a totally over the top, unnecessarily rude way.

I know I'm speaking for all of us here at the board, who aren't used to this kind of behavior.

And "not doing their best"?
I beg to disagree. We are all here because we enjoy helping other people solve problems, and to learn from each other in the process as well.

We are NOT in your employment here, and neither are we providing a paid service, so if you're not totally satisfied with the answers, you're NOT getting your money back either...

Meanwhile, take a look at the link Mosaic1 provided.
I'm sure there's a lot of useful information for you in there.

Cheers, Tony

[Mocha]

Lucky you......I just happened upon this thread doing a search. My advice to you is, first off, you need to learn something about life and how to treat other ppl. /images/forums/icons/mad.gif

You obviously are one of those that thinks the whole world owes you something. Bert didn't HAVE to take time to read your post at all, let alone reply. That was 'wasteful'. Would you have done the same for him??

How much time have you spent in your life trying to help strangers, faceless strangers at that? Get a clue! As you're searching for an answer to YOUR own questions, try a search for some character while your at it.

This is the signature of someone on another forum. For me, this tells it all.

"People may not always remember exactly what you did or what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel"

TONI HACKLER
Moderator: Computer Help

[DeQuincey]

"How much time have you spent in your life trying to help strangers, faceless strangers at that?"

Mocha if you only knew...

"Bert didn't HAVE to take time to read..."

Bert didn't have to chime in on the difference between folders and directories.

[joey0904]

I agree with TonyKlein, We are all here to help others with their problems....hopefully.

Some of us who don't know as much as others read the post but don't always reply because we don't know what to say due to lack of experience or understanding.

Others that have helped others in the past, like TonyKlein, BertImmenschuh, Coolsights2000 and Smitty who have all helped me, try to help but taking into account that your getting frustrated, don't take it out on them...If their best isn't good enough, give more details and be precise in your description and specs otherwise, go somewhere else and treat those "ppl" like you have treated these "ppl" and see what happens...!

I've read your 2 postings and alll of the reply's and you state that others don't proof read their posts and aren't specific enough before posting them but neither do you... so practice what you preach!

None of these "ppl" you refer to have to help you or even care about what you say. if you continue to treat these "ppl" like ***----s, you just might get banned from this site.... and from what I've read, I for one, wouldn't miss you and I'm sure that others feel the same way.

Do us all a favor, lighten up and treat all of us the way you would like to be treated.

Sincerely,
A know-nothing subscriber.

[DeQuincey]

"Any time someone says something that doesn't fully come up to your expectations, you react in a totally over the top, unnecessarily rude way."

Finally, someone's begining to understand...you're right, I should prod not shove. Something light and wity that won't offend anyone.

Kinda like this lil jewel...

"Meanwhile, take a look at the link Mosaic1 provided.
I'm sure there's a lot of useful information for you in there."

(I see you can dish it out, too)

[DeQuincey]

Hey man, I can dish it out and I can take. Seems like you're trying you're hand at dishing it out, too.

Here, have a helping of this:

'ppl' is my lazzy abbreviation. My carpel tunnels aren't what they used to be. Typing out 'people' is really taxing on the right pinky and ring fingers. So, I usually lift my hand, use one finger and quickly type out ppl.

I do proof my posts several times before posting them. And, I still mispell things...but, guess what? I'll use the handy 'modify' link if I notice it soon enough after posting.

What exactly do you consider as specific enough? I've posted a book!

(fyi: this post took four trips through the preview page...)

[joey0904]

You know what, I'm not going to "waste my time" dealing with you as you obviously have some kind of mental disorder that causes you to think that you are "the almighty know it all" but if you did know anything, you wouldn't be here to begin with. As I said earlier, don't take out your frustration on us as we are trying to help but you continuously seem like you are trying to pick a fight by insulting people that are trying to help, whether their help is valid or not! If you need someone to talk to, there are other sites where you can speak your mind and not insult everyone that may or may not care about you and what you have to say. Sorry if this offends you but frankly, you should not be here insulting everyone who is trying to help you! You seem like you are purposely trying to aggravate these people and that is why I suggest you seek help somewhere else.

[Mocha]

"(fyi: this post took four trips through the preview page...)"

FYI, you're the one with a question/problem, how many trips do you expect the rest of them to go through for poor li'l you??

BTW, you're not the only one with physical problems either. Plus, nobody here is interested in your book. Tell it to someone who cares, or figure it out yourself.